I also don't understand why the dispatcher did not speak directly to the crew at any time. (11NEWS/Louisville, KY) They pay more than the majors. Advertising - Thank you, A Squared. Worst i had when my co,tapped me in the arm,and at same moment,Ground prox reminded that I was doing a G/P arm from above,with 1500 fpm down.. and that wasn,t the only fumble i did in those years... -i read with very suspecting and tired eyes,proposals of duty times,to JARs and stringing of the rest periods. No particular reason to think the crew didn't know the visual requirements, per SE, but pretty clear they were unaware of their vertical situation. Is it normal to just scan the paperwork from dispatch preflight? @aterpster. And we have discussed it , but the crew do not mention it nor justiify their decision to fly the approach based upon the notam. A night flight, but otherwise you could substitute UPS with Korean. I would think they were knowledgable of the requirements though. Here is a graphic that wasn't added to the original thread, as it was effectively "conjecture" at that time - 20130903, but I suspect the flight path indicated will be very close to the fact. The CVR alludes to being "at 3,3D a couple of hundred feet high". He's suing for a relatively low $2 million. The views, opinions and content expressed on jetPilots.com do not necessarily reflect those of the FedEx Corporation, Mark Estabrook or other organizations, contributors and authors. to accept that the industry is encountering accidents which cannot be resolved with old style views of safety and human activity. Using gender-based hiring quotas would be illegal in the U.S. Federal government. I wouldn't expect to see much terrain even though it's there, because of the darkness. Lonewolf the crew were using the Jepp chart so whatever appeared on any other chart is irrelevant. I was a lurker here for years before starting to comment. Did I miss this, if so, a link? I thought they were both MSL. Approach to Landing, UPS Flight 1354, Airbus A300-600, N155UP, Birmingham, Alabama, August 14, 2013. Look at mm's diagram? Maybe somebody with a lot more experience than I have could help me understand how this accident happened. Was the notam even included in their briefing pack and it was issued months before? From the original thread that has somehow ended up over on Tech Log: A night flight, but otherwise you could substitute UPS with Korean. Safety, CRM, QA & Emergency Response Planning - UPS 1354 NTSB Investigation - CVR - The CVR transcript was released. Are you referring to the NA for night ops on the approach plate. Desert185's post #174 gives the distinct impression of a belief that if the F/O had been a guy the accident may not have happened. In the transcript the first time they knew about this was after receiving ATIS information and then they did the briefing. You can choose to display the bird and the cage but the controlling F/D or A/P mode will be something else. If I remember correctly, aterpster has had non-trivial amounts of face to face exposure with NTSB over the years, to include during accident investigations. They may have never seen the PAPIs because of weather obscuring their ability to see them. Why? Why? Even if they had the glide path, they need to be visual at 1250, (or was it 1380?) One of the things that has puzzled me since the CVR release is why nobody called the PAPI or REILS in sight. Possibly a leak / rumour? for my ID card. NTSB says that UPS Airlines and the IPA both put their own analysis of the cause for the crash into the public domain. In this case, jetPilots.com endeavors to educate pilots about the cargo aviation sector and promote knowledge through the First Amendment, Freedom of Information Act, Railway Labor Act, and AIR21 Whistleblower laws. In the US, we just implemented new rest rules (FAR117), but cargo operations were carved out and are operating under the old rules. Trouble is 98% are taught to fly NPA using FPA or V/S with automatics engaged as really there is no option if not doing a dive & drive. The Flight Crew reported a failure with the PACK 1 air conditioner during the flight. The MDA of 1200' would then just be the 'back-up'. tubby, we have thrashed this out in the Tech Log thread previously, and strictly speaking, since the Jepp chart was in error, as has been discussed, and the FAA chart was not, your choice to resurrect that rant is not understood. DozyWannabe:...caused the NTSB to have their lead investigator hold a press conference which identified a broken engine mounting bolt as the primary causal factor of the accident before their metallurgist had been given a chance to inspect it. While we have generalized fatigue, and this crew seemed to have had "adequate" rest, they may have actually just been really tired. Terms of Service - Whist fatigue is often associated with night operations; fatigue and sleep are not the same. On the other hand, their conversations may have been just shop talk. @OBD Thanks for all your insightful posts. The captain was a Marine Corps helo pilot. I say this based on no calls for 500 ft, approaching minimums and minimums. But there are plenty of other problems with the Federal hiring process. Are they going to 'pressure'? Lonewolf I have only been involved as a pilot in airline operation for twenty plus years , most of them in a A306 but I will bow to your superior knowledge, whatever that may be, and withdraw from this discussion. so ref,admitting that,i find a very good reason to be against any stretch of duty and flying hours,which seems to be the trend nowadays. the differences between asiana and ups is the difference between crawling (asiana, day visual apch, perfect wx) and running a marathon (ups, non precision, night/predawn, odd terrain and low scud). BIRMINGHAM, Alabama -- The wreckage of UPS flight 1354 in a field north of Birmingham-Shuttlesworth International Airport, Thursday August 15, 2013. since they only had one runway with one approach. Failure to abide by those instructions by an individual would result in severe discipline…. I do hope the mods remove your post asap. I'm from BHM, live there now. Thank you, I grant that there can be a host of details, maybe even impossibilities that prevent establishing precision approaches at every runway. I share your sentiments. If I was the boss of the airline I would be looking at my route structure and looking for the airfields that did not provide an ILS onto a 8000ft long runway that was free of terrain and obstacles and grading the airfields that did not fit this criteria by difficulty. I hope Machinbird has only 30 minutes drive back home. Keep seeing references to setting MDA in the altitude window...never experienced that procedure as an ALT CAP would cause a rather large increase in thrust resulting in any stable approach becoming unstable... Semaphore Sam seems to know quite clearly where the truth lies... flew postal in Europe some years,and mixed it with day ops on different type. The extract below fairly well covers it: It appears the closing of runway 6/24 took them by surprise. I run a business in my present incarnation with brutal hours and a long drive home. View Full Version : UPS 1354 NTSB Investigation - CVR. Agreed. Covering a wide range from large commercial aircraft to commuter, corporate, and even private aircraft. Did they have any union or company job where the pictures were taken? Safety, CRM, QA & Emergency Response Planning, A wide ranging forum for issues facing Aviation Professionals and Academics, Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies), The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions, Computer/Internet Issues & Troubleshooting, http://dms.ntsb.gov/public%2F55000-5...7%2F550788.pdf, http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/52137...ml#post8330120, http://dms.ntsb.gov/public%2F55000-5...7%2F550065.pdf. This transcript is proof enough that we need one level of safety in our industry. The F/O had numerous glamour shots done of herself in uniform. Is there any attempt by operators to have pilots prepare for the change to working all night after a period off, or is that left to individuals? I read a lot of helpful posts, and then some idiotic ones, also. Up to seventh... Safety, CRM, QA & Emergency Response Planning. i do not know backgrounds,but i may know what night flying is..at best and of worst of it. Yes that was my point - and I am not sure if it would be called a 'fatigue' issue in the classic sense but the effects are precisely the same. Amazingly enough I don't think new regulations would have helped here. Well, if the NTSB have evidence of 'fatigue' it would be interesting to see it. If anything, it said to him "I'm here. I do the occasional trans-con red-eye to my base, NYC. I think all of us who have flown long haul and overnight stuff have had periods during a flight when we were really alert, and periods when the eyelids just can't stay open. NTSB/AAR-14/02. The NTSB is typical of the U.S. Government for the past 30 years, or more. They reproduced various situations in the sim and photographed what the displays look like. BHM runway 18 close-in obstacle environment precludes an ILS. tubby, I am sorry to have given you offense. We did discuss this on this forum and the minima box stated simply not available at night without any caveat regarding vgsi. @aterpster. If I had a 1,500 FPM sink rate going at less than 1,000 AGL, I would seriously consider going around, and definitely would have at the "sink rate" call that close in. UPS Airlines Flight 1354 crashed in Birmingham on Aug. 14, killing UPS Airlines Capt. It was the only one of the four planes that did not reach its intended target, instead crashing in an empty field just outside Shanksville, Pennsylvania, about 150 miles northwest of Washington, D.C. having some nights,with Postal services...sleep becomes to be the prime,and mixing it with else,s everyday life..morning arrivals are,-well you know. Our tailored charts from Jepp have the airline name on them. I think 9999 out of 10,000 times, in the same situation, the pilot would have made the right judgment and gone around, but the one time he didn't, it ended up being the final hole in the Swiss cheese.
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